User talk:Nockson

OST?
Hi, thanks for all your recent work on soundtracks. I'm not sure I like the use of "OST" in every entry of a WAD's soundtrack section though, like here. It's not bothering me (much) on individual map pages, but in the listing it becomes too wordy and repetitive, IMHO. In the past, this hasn't been applied much either, usually for external titles "from Descent II" (for example) suffices, and names of Doom/Doom II/TNT et all tracks are so common throughout the wiki that just linking the track to Doom music etc. (like before your Scythe edit) sufficed, though indeed not for every subsequent use. What do you think, can such listings be condensed a bit? --Xymph (talk) 09:39, 26 February 2023 (CST)
 * Hello! Maybe for common Doom games' tracks it's enough to write down tracks' names and to not mention IWADs and composer? For example: instead of <"In the Dark" by Robert Prince, from Doom 2 OST> we can just write <"In the Dark">? But what about repetitive use? If WAD uses all the tracks from Doom, should I link to music for every track with different name or only for the very first? Nockson (talk) 10:15, 26 February 2023 (CST)
 * Composers are always credited, and since Prince wrote all D1/D2 tracks, that also helps readers recognize that the track title originates from either soundtrack without explicit mention. Duplicate links should be avoided indeed, so link only the first occurrence to the D1music, D2music, etc pages. E.g. like here. But that is just one sample, this stuff is not formatted consistently in many WAD overview pages. --Xymph (talk) 10:53, 26 February 2023 (CST)
 * OK, I will keep this in mind for my future edits and will fix the ones I've done before. One more question - Bobby Prince or Robert Prince? I prefer the latter, because it's formal, but I see that most articles go with Bobby. Nockson (talk) 11:00, 26 February 2023 (CST)
 * Either is fine, and little variation makes things less formalistic. But the score is the other way around: 95 vs. 798. ;) --Xymph (talk) 11:06, 26 February 2023 (CST)
 * I've fixed Scythe's page per our discussion. Is it fine? Nockson (talk) 11:09, 26 February 2023 (CST)
 * Works for me, thanks. --Xymph (talk) 11:19, 26 February 2023 (CST)

WF new/changed/removed custom things
Hi, perhaps you missed this request, but that info is still important to document. If the TSV format is an obstacle, just a simple bullet list would suffice too. Thanks. --Xymph (talk) 13:05, 12 March 2023 (CDT)
 * Hello! I saw this but wasn't able to do anything. I've tried using DMMPST, but it only gave me an info about Doom 2 maps, not the actual WF maps (I'm not giving up and will try again later). I've never heard about TSV before. What do you mean by "bullet list"? Should I just update the table in that discussion or do you mean something else? I'm gathering information for articles by using Slade and sometimes Doom Builder 2. The process is not automated at all, I just look through DECORATE etc. --Nockson (talk) 13:18, 12 March 2023 (CDT)


 * I didn't ask you to use DMMPST (though you're welcome to try, but better on something simple instead of WF), but to provide the precise details about the custom thing changes. Either in format like in that table (which I can directly use with DMMPST), or as a bullet list (i.e. starting with asterisks). So yes, if you could update that table we can move forward, and I'll generate the updated thing tables on the map pages. --Xymph (talk) 13:46, 12 March 2023 (CDT)


 * Oh, I see. Will do that! --Nockson (talk) 13:47, 12 March 2023 (CDT)

Leftovers
Hi, don't forget this one for soundtrack. And this for the other project participants. --Xymph (talk) 16:48, 20 March 2023 (CDT)
 * Will do that later today! I didn't forget. --Nockson (talk) 00:38, 21 March 2023 (CDT)
 * First thing's done! About the second - I made links to different levels, is it okay this way? And also question - should I add to mappers' pages all their content in DMP2022 (like photos, sprites, music, levels for Wolf3D and Hacx etc.) or only Doom-related? --Nockson (talk) 14:21, 21 March 2023 (CDT)


 * I was relieved when you created the article without map links. Because IMO in recent years the DMP series has gone from bad to worse, and 2021's maps were a PITA to cover in detail. 2022 looks even worse, just doesn't meet wiki (or at least my) standards in terms of organization anymore, and I have no intention of covering the maps. So you might as well unlink them and lower the Wanted Pages count.
 * The WAD and each participant's maps (like for 2021, without all the other "stuff") should still be covered on the mapper pages, without redlinks. --Xymph (talk) 15:54, 21 March 2023 (CDT)
 * Arrgh, I've spend some time creating all these links... Well, gotta learn the hard way. I will undo that and do mappers' pages. But not today, it has to wait til tomorrow's evening. --Nockson (talk) 16:00, 21 March 2023 (CDT)
 * Easier in Vim, done. --Xymph (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2023 (CDT)

DBPs
I would like to note that the amount of work needed to cover the entirety of the DBPs, considering we are talking about semi-speedmapping events, is outrageously large, and has always remained off the side for the wiki for this reason. I don't think we are even close to being in the position of covering all of them considering how much work there still is to do elsewhere, so I would kindly ask you to put this project on hold indefinitely. There are many other things to focus on, i.e. Old Still Life, Down the Drain, other WADs featured in the cacowards (cyber's colonoscopy is the one DBP that feels like it could have a feature article as a result), some older WADs mentioned here such as Enjay ZDoom 2001, Realm of Shades and whatnot. Not that you should be in any rush to do so, mind you, because you've done a ton of (good I might add) work lately and it pays to slow down a bit - take it from experience :)

Cheers! --Dynamo128 (talk) 13:10, 9 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Hi! Thanks for kind words, but what if I want to cover that specific series? Yeah, I know that most work will lay on Xymph and his bot, but at least I can create stub articles for most important DBPs or the ones I like (and they can remain stubs in the long perpective, no rush here). I know that there are more important mods to cover, but for me the wiki-activity is a way to relax from daily troubles. I don't want to work on something I should, I want to work on something I like or has an interest in. And I will continue to do so.
 * P.S. I have plans to work on cacowards' red pages, I'm already doing this: created articles for two parts of TurboCharged ARCADE and It Only Gets Worse. Next on the list should've been Call of Dooty 2, but I've got distracted.
 * P.P.S. I wanted to make an article about DBP16: Cyb's Freaky Colonoscopy but I stopped because it is still not fully released (being v0.99a). --Nockson (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2023 (CDT)


 * Given the circumstances, I would recommend doing what Death Bear has been doing with the PUSS pages, that is, creating articles for them but without redlinking the maps. That feels very appropriate given the speedmap-y nature of the DBPs, but also allows to have pretty comprehensive coverage of what each one is about, its theme, its authors, its music credits, and whatnot. --Dynamo128 (talk) 14:25, 9 April 2023 (CDT)


 * Like the PUSS series, covering each release with an overview page is not really a problem. But for all huge (semi-)speedmapping series goes, that the work volume caused by creating articles for all maps is beyond the threshold of at least Dynamo and myself, in terms of what we're able and willing to work on. Additionally, I feel those map articles have less value to the wiki than those of notable and standalone projects, especially the ones mentioned in the Cacowards. With all these series it seems to me that more isn't always better, often it's just... more.
 * So far DBP WAD coverage was sporadic by various contributors, more or less starting with #37 because of its Caco mention, and for that reason I was willing to spend the time/energy on creating its map articles. After considerable hesitation, this eventually extended to the other existing DBP articles because there were just a handful. But given your apparent plan to cover all installments, I regret that now. That work volume just doesn't scale anymore.
 * Elsewhere, we have put considerable effort into covering notable releases and thus lower the wanted pages count to below 1400 last year. More recently articles were (prematurely) created for WADs that aren't out of beta yet, so the redlinks count grew back over 1500 again. Now with your DBP template and #27 map links, that is going in the wrong direction even more. The template itself is fine and will eventually be clean once all installment pages are done, but increasing the redlinked maps count is unnecessary and frustrating. Yes you are correct that at a wiki, you are free to work on anything you like as long as it is meaningful content to the wiki. But doing so in a way that pushes a lot of undesirable work onto the plates of others is not really appreciated. ;-)
 * So here's my proposal: we revert DBP27 map redlinks and don't redlink future DBP maps (unless there is good reason to make an exception). When you create more overview articles (for DBP or otherwise), I link the WADs on all participating mappers' pages (easier with script). And if you create a WAD article which does deserve map articles, I also link those on mappers' pages (again easier). Thus we help each other out instead of both doing (too) much work. --Xymph (talk) 15:06, 9 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Fine with me! I will revert redlinks now, then. edit: DONE. --Nockson (talk) 15:11, 9 April 2023 (CDT)
 * A reminder, you don't need to wikilink DBP articles, this is more quickly done via bot script, with much less Recent Changes clutter (unless you use the Show Bots version). --Xymph (talk) 02:19, 12 April 2023 (CDT)

Re. title screens, these are already prepared by Matador, just seem delayed a few days. So you can save yourself the effort. --Xymph (talk) 14:59, 16 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Thanks! BTW did I made images right this time with size, palette etc? --Nockson (talk) 15:01, 16 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Yes, it looks completely fine! Thanks for taking the time to set that process up. I do recommend setting up PNGout.exe via SLADE 3 to further reduce the file size if you so desire, but it's fine as is at the very least. --Dynamo128 (talk) 15:06, 16 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Sorry, I forgot I promised those TITLEPICs yesterday, I'll upload them now. I don't have ones for 56 & 57, so those could be worked on. 48 doesn't have a titlepic so I don't know what to do about that one. I just have the NSFW one for 44, so it might be better to use the clean version for that one. --Matador (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2023 (CDT)
 * DBP 56 and 57 titlepics done. I will upload SFW version for DBP 44. --Nockson (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Only DBP48 still doesn't have one now. --Xymph (talk) 03:06, 17 April 2023 (CDT)

Mapper pages with few/no covered works
So far I was basically the only one creating mapper articles, and I have been using a notability threshold of at least two covered map pages in distinct projects, i.e. usually in two separate CPs, plus at least several other released maps not (yet) covered. This is because about most starting mappers no additional information is available, so a wiki article becomes really thin if there aren't sufficient works worth noting yet. Thus mappers like shibainumaster and CittyKat112 were on my waiting list with one map each so far.

Now you're plowing ahead on these, and BiZ and Snowy44 with zero covered works. With half a dozen+ maps in total, this is not a huge problem, but I do feel it is premature. Just like this thin mapper article. The wiki does not have to cover everyone who ever released something, as that itself isn't very notable -- hundreds of thousands of maps have been released by thousands of people, but that doesn't mean they all meet our criteria for people articles. See also this older discussion, back when the threshold still was at four covered maps.

So please think more carefully whether there is sufficient substance for a person article, and like the guideline states, "If in doubt, don't create the article." Btw, the case of BiZ is remedied by all their DSDA records, will update those links in the weekend.

Lastly, as mentioned above, wikilinking a new article everywhere can be done automatically, saving you work and everyone else Recent Changes clutter. --Xymph (talk) 16:40, 14 April 2023 (CDT)
 * This is the core of my problems with this wiki (no offense). I used to edit ru-wiki, there are a lot of great and detailed guidelines for everything - articles, templates, categories etc. Here the guidelines are pretty shallow (again, no offense, I know that FAR less people contribute here) and a great deal of guidelines is hidden in old talk pages that are difficult to find. When I created those mapper pages I thought that each of them having 5+ projects (not maps) is enough. I will consider what you told me in future edits! --Nockson (talk) 17:19, 14 April 2023 (CDT)
 * I understand, but that's just how things usually are these last few years: few active admins and experienced editors to discuss policies and guidelines, and even fewer results getting documented in the pertaining policy sections. Things just organically move along, and sometimes silently evolve (like that decreasing map threshold). And the editors that are more active, just focus on day to day activities, noteworthy new content, maintenance, reviewing, etc. – that usually takes plenty time/energy already. It sure burns me out occasionally when my backlog grows too big too fast... like this past week... --Xymph (talk) 13:30, 15 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Your last edit - did I do something wrong? I just tried to cover some Cacowards runners-up and an Enjay WAD, as Dynamo128 suggested... --Nockson (talk) 09:19, 16 April 2023 (CDT)

Tracking updates
Speaking of Recent Changes clutter, what goes for MF38 and Endless01 goes for you too. ;-) Thanks for reducing everyone else's (or at least my) read-load. Btw, I do need to commend your efforts to learn and improve, e.g. cleaning up all those DBP articles after I did a couple, and in other tasks earlier. Thought I'd mention that, lest you think I'm only grumpily bringing up topics that don't go so well yet. :) Thanks for your contribution to the wiki. --Xymph (talk) 16:44, 14 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Sorry, will do! I'm glad to help! --Nockson (talk) 17:19, 14 April 2023 (CDT)

Help with music identification
Hey! Thanks for all your help recently, but I did notice that many of your edits involved correctly assigning music tracks to maps, or identifying them yourself I assume. If so, would you be able to help me in identifying some of them? Here are some projects that need identification: Baculus, The Joy of Mapping 1, The Joy of Mapping 2, Remain 3, Demons of Problematique 2 and Titan 2. Any help here would be appreciated if you have any time to spare on this :) --Dynamo128 (talk) 09:28, 16 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Hi! Of course, I will help! And by the way, could you please tell me what I did wrong with Enjay ZDoom 2001 titlepic upload? --Nockson (talk) 09:39, 16 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Three things. The first is that it's way too big: it's over 500 KB, whereas my version, as you can see, is 40KB. Second: it's in the wrong palette, not even sure how that happened. And third, it's not upscaled properly and it has blur as a result. The way I do it is, I take the titlepic, upscale it in GIMP using the "Scale image" function, using these settings: https://i.imgur.com/sK0Sj2D.png I imagine you used Cubic interpolation, which is what makes it have that blur. I also make sure to crunch the image filesize down using pngout through Slade 3, but provided it's a paletted image (in the right palette) that's an extra step the image can look right without.
 * EDIT: Also, make sure you are working on the direct lump (usually TITLEPIC, the 320x200 doom graphic inside the WAD) rather than a screenshot - a screenshot should only be used in the case of a title map, which is a rare occurrence (but one that I did for Time Tripper, for example). --Dynamo128 (talk) 09:49, 16 April 2023 (CDT)

Morior Invictus map titles, where do they come from?
What is wrong with those map titles at Morior Invictus? Where did you get all these titles from and why change them when the maps were already properly named using the info from the .txt? Tons of weird acronyms and pig-latin (it seems) for what purpose? You should probably correct them ASAP, since they are red links and incorrectly named, and I don't think the bot should proceed to fill the map pages until the titles are properly fixed. Endless01 (talk) 15:37, 17 April 2023 (CDT)
 * From the Dehacked patch. These names are actually shown in-game and in CWILV. Txt-file contains their translations from latin. --Nockson (talk) 15:40, 17 April 2023 (CDT)
 * The WAD file also contains the original names in the .txt, shouldn't you proceed with the original ones the contributors used? IMO, it seems confusing and unnecessary, plus you would have to change the map titles in each contributor page that uses the original English titles, which is already one of the tasks the bots does automatically once all maplinkgen links are done. I think an alternative would be using parentheses to indicate the alternate title, if needed. Endless01 (talk) 15:46, 17 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Aren't the actual names shown within the game more important than their other versions from the external file? And I see from the DW thread, that the project leader did this on purpose (maybe to keep in line with the latin title of the wad). Anyway I will wait for Xymph's comment on this. --Nockson (talk) 15:54, 17 April 2023 (CDT)

First, please get it out of your head that "the bot" or "bots" exist, or do anything by themselves. As explained multiple, XymphBot is a merely bot account, not an automatic or autonomous entity. Many individual scripts need a .ini file to begin with, and I manually fire up each script.

Second, in-game map names take precedence over any documentation, which more often than I care to remember, is inconsistent with what a mod uses in-game. In this specific case, each map page can mention the alternate .txt name, but that will have to be done manually - I don't have a script for such concoctions and will not write one. --Xymph (talk) 16:40, 17 April 2023 (CDT)

'Shrinked'
To clarify: it is very welcome to reduce the dimensions of large images, both for reasons of fair use and to save disk space. But it isn't necessary to mention that (as opposed to titlepics where the aspect ratio gets corrected), and the correct verb would be shrunk. ;) --Xymph (talk) 14:08, 22 April 2023 (CDT)
 * I'm sorry! I saw "shrinked" somewhere a long time ago and somehow my brain remembered it as the correct form. As always I will stick to this guideline in future edits! --Nockson (talk) 14:19, 22 April 2023 (CDT)

Mod coverage and disk space
As noted before, the server is slowly running out of disk space, the images tree has grown to 53 GB by now. Since you seem unstoppable and are adding not only Cacowarded mods but also (seemingly) random others, I'm afraid you're going to have to slow down and refocus on contributions that do not result in the addition of many images to the wiki. Because eventually there will be no more options to free up disk space, and there's no indication if/when the disk space situation will be addressed in a more fundamental way. Then all uploading will need to be blocked, and that would be really frustrating for the wiki and everyone. Without the unrelenting influx of mods, at least that point can be postponed -- and allow normal, incidental image uploads to continue -- as long as possible. Thanks for understanding. --Xymph (talk) 06:02, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Hey, I can explain why these mods aren't random (for me at least). BOOMER - IMO it has a big chance to find its way into Cacowards 2023 (several people already suggested it in the mentionation thread at DW), so I've created page for it in advance. DMAX2021 - I just have a soft spot for WAD series, if there's one I want to have all. Speed Master - well I'm from Russia and this is a mostly Russian mapset, and you know... Anyway, I understand your point. Tell me what to do: stop uploading and work on the things I like/find important or stop uploading and work on caco articles only. --Nockson (talk) 06:17, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * That's up to you, as said the disk space situation is only helped by "contributions that do not result in the addition of many images", i.e. series of map views or screenshots. One-offs like a logo will be fine for a longer time this way. Caco mapsets normally get map articles, so those are better backburnered.
 * A particular area needing help is the addition of officially released CPs to all participating mappers' articles, like this (because Walter forgets, Buildcat doesn't appear to have time, and it cannot be automated). For some releases like this is a real grind, and I'm too tired for it. --Xymph (talk) 09:10, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Hey, I've done with the D5DA3. Throw me some more CPs to handle, I'll do them too. And you can keep doing this in future - I'll be glad to take the burden off your shoulders (some of it at least). --Nockson (talk) 10:58, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Thanks. There's the already linked OHM 1, and the preceding . There may be more on idgames that I lost track of. Btw, it's better not to add beta CPs until they have a "final" release. Betas are more likely to get slot and map name changes, and keeping track of those in existing wiki coverage is more painful than just postponing coverage until a (hopefully) stable release -- which doesn't always happen on idgames anyway. And another of Walter's "forgetful" single edits. --Xymph (talk) 11:33, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Understood! Can you please link Sesamia via your bot now? I think I will create some more mapper pages today - I'm checking people from DMAX2021 and 2022 now. And yes, I use the two maps rule! --Nockson (talk) 11:38, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Plus at least a handful of others. Which is intentionally a vague notability criterium, yes. --Xymph (talk) 12:03, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Oh my! All of the mappers added by me today have two covered maps plus a few other releases each. Or should I count only idgames uploads as releases? Can you please give me precise criterion to stick by? I feel like I did something wrong now... --Nockson (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * These were okay, just pointing it out in case more mapper articles are planned with fewer other maps besides the two+ covered ones. Edit - Consider this: when looking at a person's body of work, does it have sufficient substance to be notable? If in doubt, postpone the article until it does. The nature of the maps also counts: a map in a polished, well received CP (not yet covered) carries more weight than "my first forums map" or an entry in the umpteenth speedmapping PWAD. Thus IMO, this one is premature, because no works outside the two CPs, this was premature because no covered maps, and this will probably never get additional works because the person was only active in the previous century. :) --Xymph (talk) 12:50, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Hey, the third one isn't mine! But I see the point. And I wanna add - though DBPs are kinda speedmapping projects, a lot of them are of very high quality. And I don't quite understand why DBPs are not featured in every year's caco (well there is some politics involved but whatever). That's why I wanted to create full pages for some of them complete with maps. --Nockson (talk) 14:39, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Is Valhen_Saipiam (MAP10 in ) the same as Valhen? --Xymph (talk) 12:12, 23 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Yes. I'm fixing their page now. --Nockson (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2023 (CDT)

Good catch on realizing OHM was already listed everywhere, I wasn't aware it was normally written in full words. But this WAD still should be listed at other participants with similar map lists. --Xymph (talk) 13:37, 27 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Done a few people. Please check my edits and tell me if everything's OK with the format. Then I will continue. --Nockson (talk) 14:45, 27 April 2023 (CDT)
 * Format is the same as for the initial one, and thus okay. --Xymph (talk) 14:59, 27 April 2023 (CDT)

← ← ← Back to the original topic, the disk space situation at last. --Xymph (talk) 05:46, 20 June 2023 (CDT)
 * This is great news! Thanks for letting me know. --Nockson (talk) 05:58, 20 June 2023 (CDT)

Regarding DeHackEd
Hi. You may have noticed that I made some changes to the mapping table you created for NOSP3. I very much appreciate that you decided to create this table, however, the IDs were wrong, because the way DeHackEd works is not immediately obvious, and here I will try to explain how to do it properly.

In the DeHackEd page, you will notice a list of all the IDs. These IDs that DeHackEd uses, for the purpose of the mapping table, need to be replaced by their respective DoomEd nums that map editors use. So, for example, let's say on the DeHackEd file you run into Thing 20 (Cybruiser): on the page I linked, thing 20 corresponds to DoomEd num 7, and so that's the number that should be used.

There is, however, one exception. In case the DeHackEd section for a specific actor has a field called ID # = or ID =, then the number followed by that is what should be used, ignoring the DoomEd num.

Hope that clears it up, let me know if you have any more questions. --Dynamo128 (talk) 04:51, 10 June 2023 (CDT)
 * Hello! Thanks for the help! But there's one thing that I didn't understand with this NOSP3's table. Astral cacodemon replaces the helper dog (thing 140), so it should have number 888 in the table. But for some reason you've set this number for the evil marine (thing 249). And for the caco you've put number 151, which I can't found in the table in the DeHackEd article. Can you please explain this to me? --Nockson (talk) 05:14, 10 June 2023 (CDT)
 * Oh my, now I understand. Should've read your message more carefully. Thanks again! --Nockson (talk) 05:16, 10 June 2023 (CDT)

Editing help
Just wanted to say, thank you very much for your continued contributions and for your help earlier with the Psychedelic Eyeball pages! --Dynamo128 (talk) 10:32, 5 August 2023 (CDT)
 * My pleasure! I enjoy editing the Wiki, it gives my brain a little rest from everyday worries. --Nockson (talk) 10:47, 5 August 2023 (CDT)


 * You mentioned not minding "monotonous activities". Recently an anon added Junkfood 2 maps to only two of its many contributors. I waited a while but noone seems to be picking up the rest, and grinding through the whole list is too much for my taste. Perhaps you can handle this? And similarly large CPs in the future? I'm not sure there are no other leftovers in this department, but it would be helpful to keep an eye out. Thanks. --Xymph (talk) 05:03, 3 September 2023 (CDT)
 * Okay, I'll do that later today. And yes, feel free to throw me such tasks, I will do them in my free time. --Nockson (talk) 05:25, 3 September 2023 (CDT)

Here's, if you're up for it. --Xymph (talk) 03:08, 14 September 2023 (CDT)
 * Done! My God, that was a lot of maps. --Nockson (talk) 14:03, 14 September 2023 (CDT)
 * Thank you as always for your hard work :D Would you be interested in tackling some of the launcher redlinks? Since you have been working on utility pages quite a bit I figured that may be something that interests you, but if not or if you're too busy with other things already that's all right, I can have a look at them a bit later. EDIT: This was done and the page was brought up to speed some days ago, mentioning this in case anyone stumbles upon this talk page section. --Dynamo128 (talk) 14:05, 14 September 2023 (CDT)
 * I may do this in the future, but for now I'm focusing on older utilities. My goal now is to create at least a short stub for every editor from the good old days. I love digging through old threads and sites and stuff like that, and I think these old programs are much more important because they helped shape the Doom community in a big way. --Nockson (talk) 14:33, 14 September 2023 (CDT)
 * Very well! In that case, I would recommend looking at this post which was made today: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/132222-doom-bbs-add-ons-an-800-wad-mega-dump/?do=findComment&comment=2701253 it contains some very insightful information on early Doom utilities, and I'm sure would be very useful to you. --Dynamo128 (talk) 14:36, 14 September 2023 (CDT)
 * Oh my, a first version of DMGRAPH! And all the other stuff for my future edits. Thanks a lot! This is incredibly useful! --Nockson (talk) 14:43, 14 September 2023 (CDT)